View Full Version : [General] Lethal or Less-Lethal?
Hey everyone
Ok a interesting subject here....
LETHAL OR LESS LETHAL????
There is no right or wrong answer as both loadouts have reasons. But what is yours??
Here the subject is up for healthy debate.....
__________________________________________________ _____________
My viewpoint.....
I am a less lethal player normally, my reasoning is the challenge.
I disagree with the lethal being harder, it's easier to complete the mission by killing suspects. It's harder to get all the suspects to comply in the harder missions particularly tss coop. Therefore you have to shout, tase, punch suspects to get them to comply with less lethal, which is very difficult in multiple suspect situations.
I find opposite to the reasoning above, police mentality is to save lives. Therefore it's well known police tactics are to avoid loss of life. Therefore the scoring is only ever achieved with arrests not kills. I enjoy getting the best score possible by getting suspects to comply and be arrested. I will only kill if the officers lives are under threat, hence my lethal backup.
If I was playing as a counter terrorism unit in the army, their priority is the threat to be neutralized, not save lives. Swat however is police and the best challenge is to have a peaceful resolution.
Also... Most public garners don't know how to use lethal, it's so annoying.
LESS LETHAL FOREVER!!!
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Uh there is so much to cover up about this ' What is harder' topic. On one hand it is easy on other it is not easy at all. There is just too many variables
Uh there is so much to cover up about this ' What is harder' topic. On one hand it is easy on other it is not easy at all. There is just too many variablesIndeed, but remember the fact is police save lives and prefer peaceful outcomes.
Killing suspects is only ever if officers are under threat. That is the only argument really. Less lethal or lethal, same vision should be achieved.. Kills last resort.
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If suspects having not just pistols but heavy armor and ARs with hostages in building. I bet that they know where they went and what could happen to them. None would take risks of having dead officers on a mission and equip them with LTL on such operations. But thats of course if we stay at real life situations
I play with both so my 2 cents are:
If you play with less-lethal sometimes it hard especially if the sus has heavy amor and sometimes even the beanshotty doesn't even react to the sus, and being in 1 room with 4 sus on TSS while aresting there is a change that one of them get up and shoot you while aresting, so it takes a little patient, also aiming your nade with the launcher at the sus is sometimes a challenge.
If you play lethal, it is hard to shoot at times guess if you kill a suspect wrong you get penaltys, there are time that it is questionable too shoot or not and that might kill you at that time, offcourse it is a game with flaws guess sometimes you shoot in your right and game still counts as unauthorised, that one second if doubt of shooting makes all the difference.
So both sides can be hard or easy.
Both the hardness or eassyness all depends on the team you have with you :).
SAS_Random
13-03-18, 06:56 PM
If suspects having not just pistols but heavy armor and ARs with hostages in building. I bet that they know where they went and what could happen to them. None would take risks of having dead officers on a mission and equip them with LTL on such operations. But thats of course if we stay at real life situations
They didn't show up with suitcase bombs and AR-15s to play five card stud. If suspect is facing officers while armed, in my mind, that's a threat. If an armed suspect runs to an uncleared or unsecured area where they could take a hostage or harm a civilian or other officers, that's also a real threat. I put higher value upon those lives and often decide to at least gimp and arrest such a suspect.
I also think to save lives, but I'm not going out of my way or take unnecessary risks with civilian or officer lives.
I think everyone's unique take is enlightening and I'm enjoying the results of this thread!
Demon speed
13-03-18, 09:13 PM
I say lethal. It's a challange to play lethal weapons and got good score.
Assuming if player which use LessLethal or lethal aim good score, then Less lethal allow players for less tactical gameplay (I didn't said no tactical gameplay), if something went wrong you can almost alway shot suspect and keep good score. On purpose i omit the penetration of objects which is weak side of LL and bugs.
Player which use lethal to get good score need rationally use his equipment and be careful with tactics, because if something went wrong, tactic nor equ fail, then gonna be forced to use lethal weapons and high chance to lost points.
MichaelSR
13-03-18, 10:11 PM
Only time I use non-lethal weapons is when I need to feel safe, often when playing alone. It's easier to control suspects that are coughing and teary-eyed from the pepper than aiming your weapon at them and hoping they won't feel like risking the shot.
Other than that, I prefer lethal, for I have little to no sympathy for suspects. Whether desperate, misguided or drugged, it is not my place to care or judge how and why they got into the situation, my job is to end the crisis.
Thanks Matt for putting that in different thread as it is really interesting one
Have to point out. Are you playing alone or with someone. That is really important. By playing alone you setting your self a target. By playing it LTL with 100 points. Playing it lethal and take no penalties etc etc. No doubt playing alone is sometimes harder if you set your self specific rules for round ( As i tried to have most negative points possible in game, that took me more than 4 hours ) But again sometimes you making game more challenging without good reason for that. What you gonna benefit form that? Better handling with beangbags? better react on suspect actions. Theres a lot you can achieve. And here comes the problem that I can see. People are trying to make game more complicated then it should be by playing in team as they used to play alone.
With team you have great advantage in everything: Fire power, lot of equipment, many sectors. You can clear rooms as fast as never before. Over all you need to think less about other stuff as each member got own roles.
And now you working in team. You have to decide how you want to do it. With lethal or Less Than Lethal. Problem number One- when weapons are mixed in team. You might have penalties for shooting down suspect as in self defence, casue before someone shot him as well with beanbag. What does it say? You have problems in team as there is no trust. Its very hard to have in public servers. Organization of what you guys want to do is priority and must be set at the beginning of the round. Otherwise you losing time on eveything, people start rushing, people do all kind of crazy stuff when they are in stress.
Just if for example we were in same marine bootcamp. We would never argue about that. Everyone would cover all aspects of tactic, gun handling, survivability etc etc on same level. There would be minor differences but we could work together anyways as the base is the same for each. But this is real life and game is much easier. Lats be honest not everyone cares about others and teamplay. Theres defenetly people who trying to play in team but their understanding of that is different or limited by some reasons
What I want to say is that its hard in any way. Difficulty is not in the guns but in players themselves. How you organize and execute.
SAS_Random
14-03-18, 02:10 AM
I say lethal. It's a challange to play lethal weapons and got good score.
Assuming if player which use LessLethal or lethal aim good score, then Less lethal allow players for less tactical gameplay (I didn't said no tactical gameplay), if something went wrong you can almost alway shot suspect and keep good score. On purpose i omit the penetration of objects which is weak side of LL and bugs.
Player which use lethal to get good score need rationally use his equipment and be careful with tactics, because if something went wrong, tactic nor equ fail, then gonna be forced to use lethal weapons and high chance to lost points.
I agree that it's harder to get a good score playing lethal. Of course anyone can rambo through a mission killing every suspect in sight, and this seems to be the default opinion that LTL players have of players using lethal weapons. Lethal does not mean kill them all and let God sort them. Far from it.
There is no doubt that games like SWAT4 lean players toward LTL, if they want to score high. If you want to exceed the game limitations imposed by such a point system, playing lethal and trying to arrest as many suspects as is safe for civilians and officers, and preserving anywhere from 60-80 points, you have probably played as close to true police ROE as possible.
Police try to save lives, that is true. However, police assign value to each life differently. For example, if there is a choice between saving a civlian non-combatant or an armed suspect, these are not equal in the ledger sheet. If there is a choice between saving and officer or saving a civlian non-combatant, close your ears...ROE is to save the officer. This doesn't mean that an officer will choose to save himself before a civilian--often the opposite is true, but a partner or team mate should ALWAYS choose team over civilian. In the military the mission comes first. If saving a scumbag for interrogation is the goal, you just pray that such decisions don't have to be made during your next operation. Therefore it's well known police tactics are to avoid loss of life.
Also, from my perspective, SAS added SWAT 4 because it was a great tactical shooter and we play using a blend of police and military tactics because it makes the most sense for us. What drives me nuts is when people say stupid things like, "We play tactical here, no lethal weapons." I don't think that word 'tactical' means what you think it means. Just because my tactics are different than yours, doesn't mean I'm not playing tactically. I always laugh at the ridiculousness of the idea that tactical=LTL. What you should say is that we use LTL tactics here. You can't change the meaning of a word to suit your needs because it invalidates everyone else's tactics.
Just because most idiot, nabs don't know how to properly employ lethal tactics, doesn't mean that there are not good tactics being used during lethal-weapons-only play.
Try scoring over 70 points at the DNA lab using only lethal weapons and tactics. It's HARD. Conversely, it's fairly simple to use LTL tactics and score over 80 points.
That's my opinion, I welcome yours.
I agree that it's harder to get a good score playing lethal. Of course anyone can rambo through a mission killing every suspect in sight, and this seems to be the default opinion that LTL players have of players using lethal weapons. Lethal does not mean kill them all and let God sort them. Far from it.
There is no doubt that games like SWAT4 lean players toward LTL, if they want to score high. If you want to exceed the game limitations imposed by such a point system, playing lethal and trying to arrest as many suspects as is safe for civilians and officers, and preserving anywhere from 60-80 points, you have probably played as close to true police ROE as possible.
Police try to save lives, that is true. However, police assign value to each life differently. For example, if there is a choice between saving a civlian non-combatant or an armed suspect, these are not equal in the ledger sheet. If there is a choice between saving and officer or saving a civlian non-combatant, close your ears...ROE is to save the officer. This doesn't mean that an officer will choose to save himself before a civilian--often the opposite is true, but a partner or team mate should ALWAYS choose team over civilian. In the military the mission comes first. If saving a scumbag for interrogation is the goal, you just pray that such decisions don't have to be made during your next operation. Therefore it's well known police tactics are to avoid loss of life.
Also, from my perspective, SAS added SWAT 4 because it was a great tactical shooter and we play using a blend of police and military tactics because it makes the most sense for us. What drives me nuts is when people say stupid things like, "We play tactical here, no lethal weapons." I don't think that word 'tactical' means what you think it means. Just because my tactics are different than yours, doesn't mean I'm not playing tactically. I always laugh at the ridiculousness of the idea that tactical=LTL. What you should say is that we use LTL tactics here. You can't change the meaning of a word to suit your needs because it invalidates everyone else's tactics.
Just because most idiot, nabs don't know how to properly employ lethal tactics, doesn't mean that there are not good tactics being used during lethal-weapons-only play.
Try scoring over 70 points at the DNA lab using only lethal weapons and tactics. It's HARD. Conversely, it's fairly simple to use LTL tactics and score over 80 points.
That's my opinion, I welcome yours.I agree with you totally. Exact same viewpoint I share.
The reason i prefer less lethal though comes back to just the game. I like to get 100 percent. Killing is penalised and rightly so to a degree.
I also find when playing with a private group I take mp5 on armoured suspect missions. This is more realistic to swat teams. For example with a few suspects like Fairfax less lethal shotgun would be a real life choice as threat is minimal.
Sadly though I play public most the time and taking less lethal teaches rambos tactics have to be used as you cannot rush and kill everything with less lethal setup.
I agree about the comment saying tactics are only less lethal. That's crap. Depends on the player mentality with lethal. This is what gets confused. Both options used tactics, it's not about the kit but the use of it.
Lastly I come back to why I choose less lethal personally.... Police don't like kills. Particularly in the UK. Many examples of when the British SAS have been called in to end sieges after police hand over control. When the military special forces get a green light, it is pretty much the end of the line for the suspects will be killed. Take the Iranian embassy siege. Police did not storm the building as their mentality is not like the military. They tried negotiations and failed. SAS mopped it up.
Either way I play swat with a constant view suspects should face justice and be forced to comply. A death is a big thing for the police, but less lethal or lethal, the kill should be a last resort. That's more the discussion in my opinion. The tactics players take, which I see too many thinking it's counter strike.
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Hey.
Just wanted to say that I am with Matt on this one.
Lethal is a last resort... But I am quick to use it against a surprise threat, especially when a hostage is threatened. My load out usually consists of a lot of gas canisters, due to the effectiveness of subduing several known suspects and being effective in a challenging environment. I vary my armaments, but I carry one lethal weapon to always be able to shoot, be it through glass or plastic to take out a hostile target if need be.
I also try to respect Police ROE. If a suspect runs, I usually don't fire a lethal weapon, even if he fired first, lost his gun or got stunned and ran. Runners are really dangerous to officers in the game, yet I prefer not to shoot someone in the back.
You have some nice tools in SWAT4, but I think some of those tools made players more lazy with their team efforts... With doorsitting and wedging, it is a bit of a manipulation more than a SWAT4 tactical entry.
I'm all for a fun time though, cuffing up suspects and calling it a day with a 100 point smile is my favorite.
SAS_Random
14-03-18, 12:31 PM
...I think some of those tools made players more lazy with their team efforts... With doorsitting and wedging, it is a bit of a manipulation more than a SWAT4 tactical entry.
LOL. Don't get me started on my top peeves about SWAT 4 players using odd-ball tactics.
Door sitting, as you call it. SAS calls it body wedging. Soooooooo unrealistic. What do you suppose any non AI suspect would do about a door that is being held by an officer's ass? He would pump said ass full of lead. If you don't have wedges, please don't use the door sit/body wedge.
This "tool" is an LTL player's compensation to not wanting to shoot any suspects. Don't be lazy. If you anticipate needing wedges, then equip your team with enough of them. Otherwise, be a true operator and cover the door with your weapon from a safe angle and distance. If a suspect enters unannounced, issue compliance then let the bodies fall where they may.
Columbo
14-03-18, 03:24 PM
Have to agree with Demon Speed.
I prefer using lethal weapons, because it encourages close teamwork to achieve a good score.
Also i think it is more challenging - but i not claim its harder to complete the round, survive the round or to aim your gun. No. But it is harder to get a good score, it's harder to get 100/100 ranking. And that is good this way! :)
Certainly, i think like most people, i started playing the game less lethal. And as you said Matt, it almost ensures that you get a 100 score per round. Actually i know less lethal players that consider it a failure if there is any other end result than 100.
Skilled players can practically clear the default maps completely alone using less-lethal guns and getting full score.
But i learned fast that, for me, a score of 100 doesn't mean it was a good round... for example when people on a Less-Lethal-server started pepper rushing on Tenement and i virtually never see a teammate the whole round. Although 100/100, the "GG" at the end almost feels like irony. Thats no cooperation in my opinion.
The biggest weakness of Less Lethal is, as experienced player you not really need to cooperate with others or teamwork. Also a less-lethal player does not need to care for Rules of Engagements - you can always "shot on sight" without consequences... if it was a civilian that came around the corner and got hit by a beanbag, who cares?
I know it sounds like a "David vs Goliath" thing going with a Nova pump and beanbags against heavily armed, armored combatants.
But in this game it really isn't! One beanbag round, no matter at which body part it is placed, will stun every opponent.
Thats what lethal players are talking about, when saying less-lethal is overpowered.
In contrast to that, lethal players can only rely on their tacaids to solve the situation without casulties. With tacaids i mean flashbangs, gas, breaching equipment, wedges etc.
And these are extremely limited, forcing you to work together to achieve a good end result.
Im totally with you, when you say SWAT is a police force and there to save lives.
I think thats the curse of lethal weapons, that some people tend to confuse military (or anti-terror missions) with the tasks of a police force, that SWAT is.
Unfortunately there are lethal players that provoke shootouts, entering rooms without nades (even if they still got plenty), simply going for the kill (to prove their good reaction? idk).
But i think a serious lethal player is also aiming for a 100 score!
But getting there is a real team effort and a lot harder to achieve.
And yes, it is possible to do full score on all default maps with a full lethal setup (primary and secondary weapon lethal).
Of course this requires different tactics and procedures than with Less-Lethal, but if you succeed it feels like a real accomplishment.
I think in the end people have many different motives to play Swat4 COOP - some want to "beat" the game and get high scores others want a realistic experience and close teamwork.
I would say, stay open minded and respect each other. Thats most important. :)
Greetings
Have to agree with Demon Speed.
I prefer using lethal weapons, because it encourages close teamwork to achieve a good score.
Also i think it is more challenging - but i not claim its harder to complete the round, survive the round or to aim your gun. No. But it is harder to get a good score, it's harder to get 100/100 ranking. And that is good this way! :)
Certainly, i think like most people, i started playing the game less lethal. And as you said Matt, it almost ensures that you get a 100 score per round. Actually i know less lethal players that consider it a failure if there is any other end result than 100.
Skilled players can practically clear the default maps completely alone using less-lethal guns and getting full score.
But i learned fast that, for me, a score of 100 doesn't mean it was a good round... for example when people on a Less-Lethal-server started pepper rushing on Tenement and i virtually never see a teammate the whole round. Although 100/100, the "GG" at the end almost feels like irony. Thats no cooperation in my opinion.
The biggest weakness of Less Lethal is, as experienced player you not really need to cooperate with others or teamwork. Also a less-lethal player does not need to care for Rules of Engagements - you can always "shot on sight" without consequences... if it was a civilian that came around the corner and got hit by a beanbag, who cares?
I know it sounds like a "David vs Goliath" thing going with a Nova pump and beanbags against heavily armed, armored combatants.
But in this game it really isn't! One beanbag round, no matter at which body part it is placed, will stun every opponent.
Thats what lethal players are talking about, when saying less-lethal is overpowered.
In contrast to that, lethal players can only rely on their tacaids to solve the situation without casulties. With tacaids i mean flashbangs, gas, breaching equipment, wedges etc.
And these are extremely limited, forcing you to work together to achieve a good end result.
Im totally with you, when you say SWAT is a police force and there to save lives.
I think thats the curse of lethal weapons, that some people tend to confuse military (or anti-terror missions) with the tasks of a police force, that SWAT is.
Unfortunately there are lethal players that provoke shootouts, entering rooms without nades (even if they still got plenty), simply going for the kill (to prove their good reaction? idk).
But i think a serious lethal player is also aiming for a 100 score!
But getting there is a real team effort and a lot harder to achieve.
And yes, it is possible to do full score on all default maps with a full lethal setup (primary and secondary weapon lethal).
Of course this requires different tactics and procedures than with Less-Lethal, but if you succeed it feels like a real accomplishment.
I think in the end people have many different motives to play Swat4 COOP - some want to "beat" the game and get high scores others want a realistic experience and close teamwork.
I would say, stay open minded and respect each other. Thats most important. :)
Greetings
Could not have put it better myself. Here Here Columbo.... Well said :)
This "tool" is an LTL player's compensation to not wanting to shoot any suspects. Don't be lazy. If you anticipate needing wedges, then equip your team with enough of them. Otherwise, be a true operator and cover the door with your weapon from a safe angle and distance. If a suspect enters unannounced, issue compliance then let the bodies fall where they may.
I wouldn't say it is has much to do with LTL players as much as it has to do with the lack of players and training together. A SWAT team would be full of officers ready to cover all angles, where as you might be going in alone or with a buddy. Same with struggling to have a cohesive unit with a full team. With no training among each other, and leaders who's not able to keep people in line. And with few maps that are played so many times people "know" beforehand what's up. I'd love to play a "no doorsitting" round with a team.. But the probability of it being anywhere near a smooth experience is... Well... I have doubts.
Nothing a bit of training among us won't fix though. With EL, R1, R2, B1, B2 set up and having designated roles and tactics people know fairly well, it should be smooth sailing for element lead to designate roles and each role having a load out that fits the role... Red being point, Blue being secondary/cover/back-up.1's carrying mirror, 2's deployment.. Movements and formations adapting to the environment flawlessly without an EL having to direct... With rolling points in hallways for maximum cover and... and... Yeah... My SWAT3 days are surfacing here. :D
I wouldn't say it is has much to do with LTL players as much as it has to do with the lack of players and training together. A SWAT team would be full of officers ready to cover all angles, where as you might be going in alone or with a buddy. Same with struggling to have a cohesive unit with a full team. With no training among each other, and leaders who's not able to keep people in line. And with few maps that are played so many times people "know" beforehand what's up. I'd love to play a "no doorsitting" round with a team.. But the probability of it being anywhere near a smooth experience is... Well... I have doubts.
Nothing a bit of training among us won't fix though. With EL, R1, R2, B1, B2 set up and having designated roles and tactics people know fairly well, it should be smooth sailing for element lead to designate roles and each role having a load out that fits the role... Red being point, Blue being secondary/cover/back-up.1's carrying mirror, 2's deployment.. Movements and formations adapting to the environment flawlessly without an EL having to direct... With rolling points in hallways for maximum cover and... and... Yeah... My SWAT3 days are surfacing here. :D
I do remember games before where no one actually had to say anything, the whole team was like on auto-pilot and no words where needed :)
It was all because you always play with the same team and know how they playing.
But we did have like El,Red1 and so on before and it worked pretty good.
MichaelSR
15-03-18, 08:59 AM
In regards to body-wedging, a humorous input from me, picture this if you'd like:
I do wonder how much of a heart attack would someone get, if the suspect simply pulled the door open instead of continuously trying to push it open, since as we all know, doors in SWAT4 open BOTH ways.
"Oh this door can't be pushed? I pull. Hello there, random crouching officer with his back turned thinking the door is sealed." :3
I do remember games before where no one actually had to say anything, the whole team was like on auto-pilot and no words where needed.
Sounds smooth, but I wouldn't go that far. EL is the glue that keeps it going, and choosing different approaches gives game variety, so as EL I try to do different things, even if it is compromising.
My responsibility would be to try to find the best solutions to the issues that arise, and to reign players in and maybe give some risky orders to keep the players on their toes even though I know the layout and dangerous corners. The players need to feel a bit of a thrill too, and not just the mundane (trust me, in the past I would go with safe and mundane). I know I've gotten more triggerhappy over the years too.
I wish there was a mod that switched up enemy placement more. Making more roamers (seemingly individuals with things to do and not just standing in the same place for hours). But I suppose I could start playing those custom maps.
Sounds smooth, but I wouldn't go that far. EL is the glue that keeps it going, and choosing different approaches gives game variety, so as EL I try to do different things, even if it is compromising.
My responsibility would be to try to find the best solutions to the issues that arise, and to reign players in and maybe give some risky orders to keep the players on their toes even though I know the layout and dangerous corners. The players need to feel a bit of a thrill too, and not just the mundane (trust me, in the past I would go with safe and mundane). I know I've gotten more triggerhappy over the years too.
I wish there was a mod that switched up enemy placement more. Making more roamers (seemingly individuals with things to do and not just standing in the same place for hours). But I suppose I could start playing those custom maps.
To get new experience custom maps are the thing as they are ussually harder then the vanilla maps, also TSS also has a little more different as they are not always on the same place, they stand back up and they move more around.
Dear Friends !
Lethal or non lethal weapon to use is like Shakespeare's famous immortal question "To be or not to be ? We can also ask to survive or not survive ? If you want to survive the mission, you probably will take Suppressed MP5 or M4 in Treshold or Hotel and loaded magazine with FMJ ammo ! Yes everyone except pointer should do this in some specific way. I managed to start some scientic program based on specific Rambo's behavior ! I watched them and I saw one important thing. They were always thinking about how to finish fast the mission (looks how I was great and how strong hero I was) or how to survive (Look I shooted so many suspects) The point of view in this situation is, they never use non lethal weapons ! We are not like them, we are better ! We wants to be active, effective, plays with tactic skills and always be ready to save hostages. SWAT 4 is about how to get 100 points for release hostages, arrest suspect's or disable bombs ! That mean if you want to be very good in this game, you need to know two important things. First ask for a questions How capture and cuff sus or how release hostages ? Second How to survive and don't lost points for injury ? I think the best option to receive maximum points is use as many as possible non lethal weapon like for example Nova shootgun. This weapon is effective in the most maps and is good to do some actions like for example provide cover, force suspects to fast complain ! That's why I like it the most. I can receive points for a some non lethal shoots. In the shop I advise users to use also paintball rifles, as they're effective against non armored suspects ! For that maps I mostly using this kind of equip Nova when I am a pointer, two or three grenades cs ( there're don't make noise) , opti and wedge. For the missions where suspects using armours like Threshold, Hotel I try to use MP 5, two wedges, CS flash and opti
Lethal all the way for me but i dont mind using LL if the leader wants me to.
I think LL is too easy for me but i guess every person is different and LL is buggy sometimes, like when you shoot them with the beanbag or taser sometimes it just doesnt work.
Imo i think its more of a challenge to go lethal but again everyone is different.
Sounds smooth, but I wouldn't go that far. EL is the glue that keeps it going, and choosing different approaches gives game variety, so as EL I try to do different things, even if it is compromising.
My responsibility would be to try to find the best solutions to the issues that arise, and to reign players in and maybe give some risky orders to keep the players on their toes even though I know the layout and dangerous corners. The players need to feel a bit of a thrill too, and not just the mundane (trust me, in the past I would go with safe and mundane). I know I've gotten more triggerhappy over the years too.
I wish there was a mod that switched up enemy placement more. Making more roamers (seemingly individuals with things to do and not just standing in the same place for hours). But I suppose I could start playing those custom maps.
You need start playing VIP :) You will feel always on the edge with unpredictable enemies. Mode where fast thinking is needed and without team play is impossible to achieve the mission goal
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